Hard time supporting this wedding

[cali4dawn]

My DP's (domestic partner) brother is getting married on March 6. He is 23 and still lives at home with mom because he works at a national fast food joint (not as a manager), and has no $$. He is marrying someone who is not an American citizen and barely speaks his language and he does not speak hers. She is a devout Catholic and he is devoutly ex-Catholic.

My DP and I firmly believe in being of the same faith. When you are not, you are teaching the children neither religion/practice is important. The fact that they barely speak the same language bothers me. And the fact that she is not a citizen and this is affecting her schooling here... sound fishy?

On top of all of this, they have planned their wedding on his sister's (My DP) and my anniversary! Yes, this bothers me, right or wrong... it does.

I am a wedding coordinator by trade, but feel I would be doing a disservice to them if I supported this obviouly doomed wedding and helped. Marriage is a serious institution. It is not to be taken lightly or for granted.

I feel that everyone helping in the wedding is responsible for uplifting and supporting the couple. Too many people view the wedding as just a fun day and they take no responsibility in their roles as members of the wedding party. It is a fun day, but only if everyone in the wedding party believes in this couple and has done their duties as described.

How do you feel?

[meliz]

Cali4dawn, I can empathise with your concern over you baby bro. But, admittedly only knowing these few details, I really do think this is something you would be wise not to foist on him. He may only be 23, but he is an adult. I think he deserves your support now.

As for his $ situation, one CAN do a fairly cheap wedding. Hub and I were both students when we wed and we pulled the thing off entirely on our own very meagre $. It can be done. You just have to get creative and selective and change your expectations. A lavish wedding does not make a happy marriage.

My DP and I firmly believe in being of the same faith. When you are not, you are teaching the children neither religion/practice is important. The fact that they barely speak the same language bothers me.

But most importantly, does HE feel he needs someone who shares his non-Catholic beliefs? Doesn't sound like it. There are lots of folks (like me for instance) for whom faith is not a huge do-or-die issue-- and I suspect it's actually healthy to teach kids about more than one faith tradition... gives the kid more to think about and then when/if he/she chooses a faith it'll be that much more meaningful to the kid. As for the language thing... what a great learning experience for both of them! And, should they have kids, the child could grow up learning both languages. How awesome is that? I have a niece with a French mom and a very English dad, and that 3 year old can switch back n' forth between the two like nothing. I am so jealous!

And if she is so devoutly Catholic, I am thinking she's not going to enter into the sacrament of marriage lightly, just for the sake of a visa.

I would be doing a disservice to them if I supported this obviouly doomed wedding and helped.
Hmmm... I am not so sure on this either. It sounds like you have unfairly doomed them yourself, which isn't fair to them or to yourself.

I am sorry if it sounds like I am coming down hard on you... I really don't mean to. I appreciate that your concerns (which may or may not be legit) stem from your love of your brother. But I do think that for the sake of your relationship with him, and for the sake of YOUR happiness, as well as his and that of his fiance, you should give him some credit and the support that I am sure he wants from his big sis right now.

Good luck with all this!

[cali4dawn]

No, they are not having a cheap wedding. Both mothers are paying for it. So far they are up to about $10k. And he works for Wendy's... making very little. Whick is why he lives at home. They intend to continue living where he is living which means good old Mom will be supporting them.

Until you can support your family, you have no business creating one. It's different if something happens after the wedding, but to go in to the relationship like this, I feel, is very irresponsible.

They are young and think that life will be great. I've spoken to many people who were raised by different religions. Most of these people do not attend any church at all as adults because they were inadvertently taught that it really wasn't that important. The parents were not united on this issue and it was either not stressed enough or was a constant fight/battle of wills. Either way is not a good impression for growing children. This is something that non-church-going people don't think about. But it does have an impact. As a family unit, you have to be united in your faith. This is what God was talking about when he do not be unequally yolked.

I don't have a problem with the language barriar directly. I know many children that are growing up bilingually. But the parents can also speak to each other fully and completely. As I'm sure your adult family members can.

I'm just really stressed about this whole situation. He doesn't hold a job. He is constantly living off of parents. It's just so irresponsible. And I'm upset with all the parents for encouraging this behavior. I would never encourage my son to get married when he couldn't even support himself. And I certainly wouldn't offer to support them.

I guess I have strict beliefs. But my beliefs, for the most part, keep me in line. You don't get married while in school/ you don't get married while in debt/ you are able to stand on your own two feet before attaching someone to yourself, thereby avoiding dependency/ You only marry someone of the same faith/ and you both have great communication skills/ you plan out your lives before getting married: where you stand on children, work habits, financial habits, goals, etc and make sure you are on the same page. Most people don't put half as much effort into the marriage BEFORE getting married as they do they the wedding. This is a proven fact or the divorce rate would not be so high.

I followed all these rules and now have a great relationship and a great future in love, personal goals and finances. And guess who taught me and my DP these things... my parents and the same parents (DP's) who are supporting him. He was a change of life baby, I'm 41. So there are many years difference between him and the other siblings. I have a son just 1 year younger.

I don't know, I was hoping someone could talk me out of feeling this way. But it doesn't look like it. I've never been upset with him before. It wasn't my business if he bummed around and it wasn't my business if he was supported by parents. But it is my business who I help to get married. I just can't get passed the fact that he can't support himself... he has no business walking down that aisle.

On a side note, I had a very cheap wedding, also. It was beautiful and elegant. But I had some insider help being a corrdinator already. But it was still simple. It doesn't take much money to get married. But it takes a whole lot to get divorced.

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate it.

[tifferoo]

I think you should follow your heart on this matter. It is true, when you stand with someone or even participate in their wedding, you are acknowledging that you agree with the marriage. To even be a spectator there would say that you believe that they should be married. If you beleive that 2 different faiths shouldn't marry, then to compromise with your DP's brother would go against your belief system and cause you to stumble. I don't think we should be forced to participate in anything we don't beleive in and this is no exception.

I don't necessarily think that your DP's brother will be too happy with you for standing up for what you believe in so you should also prepare yourself for him not being a part of your life if you do decide not to pariticipate in the wedding. But in the end, if they get married and it doesn't work, I think you would feel a lot better knowing that you didn't condone this marriage. Either way it goes, it will be a very tough decision for you and your DP to make, but I think you should stand your ground on this matter and deal with the consequences latter.

[lovebug]

I know from my experience of my brother being in a horrible relationship and wanting to marry her that you can do nothing. We tried and now he barely talks to us or comes around. You have to let people make their own mistakes even if we can see it clear as day.

[Deana]

There is a member of my family that got married recently and I frowned upon that wedding, but I didn't voice it.

I'm sure I would have some judgement about this relationship as well, but bottom line it's their life. I hate to sound harsh. They are obviously going to have to learn some pretty hard lessons very quickly and who knows if their marriage will last a lifetime. I feel very strongly that marriage is a lifelong, very serious commitmment, and unfortuately some others don't. Honestly, I don't think people have to have the same belief system (unless they are polar opposite - then it's an overall value issue) to have a successful relationship, but that is important to you, so that's fine. What works for some doesn't work for others.

I guess my ultimate question to you is, how is this directly affecting you? Their values and views on relationships are different that yours, but underneath it all, other than you not agreeing with it, is it affecting your life? Again, I don't mean to sound harsh. Sometimes when I feel very strongly about something in someone else's life (like my family member's wedding) I have to question why it bothers me so much.

edited to add (sorry, I re-read your original post and had another thought): If your concern is that you won't be able to give them emotional support on their marriage, how comfortable do you feel voicing this to them?

[Life201]

Originally posted by cali4dawn

I guess I have strict beliefs. But my beliefs, for the most part, keep me in line. You don't get married while in school/ you don't get married while in debt/ you are able to stand on your own two feet before attaching someone to yourself, thereby avoiding dependency/ You only marry someone of the same faith/ and you both have great communication skills/ you plan out your lives before getting married: where you stand on children, work habits, financial habits, goals, etc and make sure you are on the same page. Most people don't put half as much effort into the marriage BEFORE getting married as they do they the wedding. This is a proven fact or the divorce rate would not be so high.


There’s nothing wrong with having strict beliefs. But you also cannot expect everyone to adhere or subscribe to the exact same beliefs.

I truly believe that falling in love is not something that can be planned, although a wedding is. I give you that. But I don’t agree that everything has to be perfect before making a commitment. I think that, although they may seem somewhat irresponsible now, They are very blessed to have people who believe in them and support them enough to help them until they are able to get on their feet. Not everyone has people in their lives they can count on for anything.

It’s a nice idea to be able to plan your life out on a piece of paper and have it all mapped out. But it just doesn’t usually work that way. If you wait until things are perfect for everything, you may never get there or get the opportunity. I knew a man who planned and scrimped and saved for his retirement for years, had all these plans of what he would do and he finally retired. Two weeks later, he had a stroke and died and never got to enjoy any of what he had worked so hard for. His wife was so lost without him, she died within months and the money was distributed among their children, but was never enjoyed by the couple who worked and planned so hard for it.

There’s no perfect time for families or having children. Life happens and you deal with the blessings and the blows and hope you’re able to take it all in stride.

If these two young people are in love, that should be a great foundation to start and build upon. Take your faith and knowledge and experience and share that gift with them to help them stand on their own feet and build a good life in this world . The greatest gift you can give them is love. You don’t have to understand or even agree, after all, isn’t that how we have faith, we just believe?

[cali4dawn]

Deana, thanks for your comments.

I have posted my feelings and concerns to them very loving and passionate. I've asked them have you thought about... have you considered... And I've told them they are way to immature and have no savings and no way to live on their own now.

This does effect the whole family. Who will need to pick up the pieces as things fall apart? Who will be supporting the parents in their old age because they spent all of their savings supporting adults and their family? What about the children these two produce? I had to take custody of my brothers children when he and his wife divorced because they were both so irresponsible (drunk) (this lasted 2 years, then the mom wised up and straightened out her life). I had 3 young kids (3-5-9) looking at me wondering why Mom and Dad left.

Everything last thing we do effects other people. If we were to be more conscious (sp) of this fact, there are many things each of us would not do. If we would all ask ourselves, how will affect my parents, my friends, my family, we may not do it. I understand you cannot base all decisions on their reactions, but they must be considered. Lord knows I'm a great example of this fact. Do you think my parents love having a lesbian for a daughter? As supportive as they are, I'm sure they would choose differently for me. I had to consider their feelings before deciding to come out. Obviously, I ultimately chose to live my life honestly. But this was not without weighing the odds. My parents are not financially supporting me, housing me, or anything else. But they do offer me their love and I would never want them to feel shameful of me (deservedly so or not). Luckily I have very loving parents and even in-laws. So my decision was easy. And I would have came out if they had disowned me, but I still had that to think about it. This directly affects their life. They have ignorant people asking them silly questions. They have church people asking questions, offering prayers, even family members. My life affects them. Your life affects your parents and your siblings, and their life decisions affect yours.

[Life201]

Cali,
I truly understand your take. My parents have supported my younger sister, even after she quit school and ran away with an older married man at 17. When we found her, she was pregnant and they’ve been on an off, he even dumped her on my parents’ doorstep when he got tired of her and the baby. My parents had given them a place to live and a car to drive, as well as helping them out financially. Finally, they got back together and got married and have pulled their lives together and are pretty responsible.
I stopped after my first year of college and married my sweetheart after he finished school. I was married and we had a baby the following year, I was only 22. But we both have found good careers and have never had any help from our parents for school or living or anything else. We’ve done it all 100% on our own and we do appreciate it so much more, and we value the life we’ve built. We haven’t waited for the perfect time, other than when we felt God was telling us it was time for something to happen. We’ve always trusted in him to guide us and we’ve never been disappointed.

[Deana]

You make a very good point about other's decisions affecting your life. I guess I sort of feel like I get to choose how other's decisions affect me (but that is way easier said than done). My sisters, my parents, have all done things that I don't agree with or like, but I get to choose how I handle it. I have lived a good majority of my life worried about what others (mostly close family members) will think if I do something and I've decided that they can handle my decision however they would like. But I tend to think that I make decisions with pretty sound judgement.
You are obviously a caring person and are quite concerned about this couple's future and well-being. It sounds like they really NEED support right now.

[pikachu0519]

First off, let me say, I think that you must care about your brother a great deal, or you wouldn't be torn with this issue. However, like Lovebug and Meliz said, sometimes we have to let people make their own mistakes. As hard as it may be to stand on the sidelines and watch what seemingly is a disaster waiting to happen, sometimes we have to, otherwise those making the mistake won't learn anything from this life lesson.

I would hate to have something like this come between my brother and I, if I were in your shoes. I have a brother who is eight years younger than me, and there is just the two of us. If he were to get married to someone I didn't approve of, I would still attend the wedding. I understand what you're saying when you say that attending means that you support their decision. Yes it does, but think of it this way. Your attending also means you support your brother. I guess what I'm trying to say is that your presence can symbolize your support for him and his choice to make this decision, but you don't necessarily agree with the decision itself. Do you understand what I mean? If it were me, I couldn't bear the thought of losing my brother because I didn't agree with his marriage. Just because you love your brother, doesn't mean you have to be happy with his life decisions. Ultimately, he has to, and if down the road he doesn't, he and his wife have to work that out themselves. But who knows? They could be the exception to the rule and go on to spend a lifetime of love together. There have to be exceptions, otherwise, there would be no rule in the first place.

Kudos to you for making it on your own, and doing things responsibly before getting married, but not everyone is level headed; some are making mistakes along the way to getting there, and some just never will. But I truly believe that because this really revolves around the two of them (and your parents who are paying), that you have to leave it up to them. If you choose not to support it, that's your decision, but I would never not support my little brother if I didn't agree with his choice. He knows when I don't agree with something he's doing, but I'm still there for him. He's the one who has to live with the consequences, not me. As for your parents, same thing. If they choose to spend money on a marriage that may not last, that's their choice. It's their money, and their son.

That said, I'm not trying to come down on you or anything, but I must tell you that I strongly disagree with some statements you made.
Until you can support your family, you have no business creating one.

You don't get married while in school/ you don't get married while in debt/ you are able to
stand on your own two feet before attaching someone to yourself, thereby avoiding dependency/ You only marry someone of the same faith.....

I followed all these rules and now have a great relationship and a great future in love, personal goals and finances.
Well, I have been happily married for two and a half years, and I didn't go about it the right way according to your "rules". Things are much different now, but when Michael and I were married when we're weren't financially well off. We were doing just fine, but we still owed for school, and weren't making a lot of money, or settled in our careers. My parents contributed to part of the wedding, but we paid for the majority of it. We had every intention of paying for the whole thing ourselves. But even if we had been more than financially stable, my parents would have still insisted on contributing. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because it was partially their celebration too. They were celebrating their first/oldest/only daughter getting married, and welcoming Michael into our family. Michael and I are both Catholic, but had he been of a different religion than I, I wouldn't have changed mine for his or expected the opposite. If we were both still in school, we probably wouldn't have got married because we wouldn't have been able to have the wedding we wanted. But I do not think there is anything wrong with doing so if you are able. I didn't follow these "rules" as you put it, and I have exactly what you have: I have an incredibly wonderful and loving relationship with a fantastic future emotionally, financially and romantically.

All I'm saying is, that I'm happy for you that things have worked out perfectly for you and according to your life plan. But there is something to be said for taking it one day at a time. I do agree with you that many take marriage too lightly, and marry "for the moment", not for the future. Marriage is a union and life decision that should be perused and contemplated with a great amount of serious thought. However, to say someone has no business starting a family until they can support one, in my opinion, is wrong and unfair. Should only the wealthy and financially stable make marital unions? There would be a lot of great, happy, and long lasting marriages in this world that would have never come to fruition if everyone believed that.

[tifferoo]

Originally posted by cali4dawn
As a family unit, you have to be united in your faith. This is what God was talking about when he do not be unequally yolked.


Originally posted by cali4dawn
Lord knows I'm a great example of this fact. Do you think my parents love having a lesbian for a daughter? As supportive as they are, I'm sure they would choose differently for me.

Cali4dawn,

I am confused now. How can you believe in two people not being unequally yoked in marriage and at the same time be a lesbian? How can you be united as a family and in your faith if you don't have they type of family that the Bible talks about. I don't want you to think I am attacking you but I need to know. It seems to me that you accept part of the Bible but not all of the Bible. Could you clear this up for me?

[HeavenLeigh]

Here's my personal opinion.......I do think it sounds fishy that he's marrying her. How can you get to know someone if there's a language barrier? :huh: I agree that it is irresponcible to start a family with no way to support it. I also think it's a crock for a grown man of 23 to depend on his mother to support him and his new bride and for both mothers to be paying for the wedding. I also think it's important to share religious beliefs or at least respect the other person's belief and not try to push your upon them.

BUT.....he is 'capable' of making his own decisions. Even if they do suck. If his mother doesn't feel the need to say "Ya'll are not living with me. I'm not financially supporting you." it shouldn't bother you. If both sets of parents are paying for the wedding. Oh well, their money loss. If he/she doesn't care about the others belief system....that's them.
I think you should just go with the flow. I'm not trying to be mean because I understand why you feel the way you do.....but it's not your wedding, you won't be living with his mother, and you won't have to go thru the pains of divorce when/if it fails.

[cali4dawn]

And I still stand strong. Especially after many of these posts. This will probably end up very long.

I'll try to address a few of them, although I won't remember who said what.

I have no problem with people helping to pay for the wedding. It is a joyous occasion and a family celebration. It is not a personal thing, you are marrying the family, with all the good and bad that goes with it. The actual wedding itself is very much a family celebration. It's the marriage that's private.

And being a family celebration, each person attending must support THE NEWLY CREATED FAMILY. We don't.

No, there's nothing wrong with being so-called poor and starting a family. Flipping burgers at Wendy's at 23 is more than being poor. It's just plain stupid. I am far from rich. I'm a homemaker married to a police officer. We obviously don't have lots of cash coming into our home. My partner and I just bought a home that will stretch us pretty far for at least the first 2 years. But we went ahead with the purchase. I never said you have to wait until everything is just right. First of all just right does not exist, anywhere. But you do have to at least be going in the right direction. Those of you who got married while still in school, yes, I'm against that, but at least you were headed for better times.

Taking a stand on a moral issue will always cost you friends/family. But you just cannot stand back and support something that is just plain wrong.

I agree, it is his parent's problem to spend their money on him. I never stated otherwise. But it will be our problem when they are older and broke and my partner and I are supporting them. It will not be the one working at Wendy's doing this.

Yes, as a family we will be growing through the pains of divorce if/when it fails. Do you really think I can watch a family member go through pain and not feel it myself? Even if he has set himself up for it, it will still be painful. And if there are children, God help them. When my brother and his wife lost the kids, I hurt so badly for both of them. Just because it was the right thing to do does not mean it's not painful. It was still my brother and a sister-in-law I had had in my life for 12 years. We went through our second pregnancies together!

Obviously, I have to let him make his own mistakes. He is over 18. For $25 the state of NC will marry him. I have no say so in that.

I'm sure I am a bit more sentitive about this subject because I HAVE had to pick up the pieces for a brother's bad decision. Deanna had stated she has not liked family decisions but it's up to her to decide how to handle it. I toally agree. My choices were to let the kids go to foster care or take them in myself. These are huge major life changing events that someone else's bad decisions thrust upon not only me but my entire family unit. I was young and had 2 little ones of my own. We made good money for a family of 4. Now we were a family of 7, big difference. I had 5 kids in the house, one 9 and 4 between 3 and 5. And now that my father has spent thousands and thousand of dollars trying to get my brother help, guess who he's coming to live with. I have no choice in these matters except to pick up someone else's pieces. How would you have handled this? We're not talking just about feelings here. We're talking about life altering decisions. It affected my children, they had to drop out of social events. We had to cancel a vacation we'd been planning for 2 years. The clothig budget changed. Food became different, lots more rice and noodles. My kids did not complain, but even they felt the affects of my brother's lifestyle. We won't even go into his kids lifestyle change. They were timid and scared coming to live with us. They had a crappy home life, but it was still their home. They had no clue what it was like to live f/t with loving caring parents. Do you know how badly kids behave when they are afraid of hurting their own parent's feelings for loving the new parent figures and liking it better at the new place than the old place? Don't even think it was a day at Disney Land while they figured it all out

Love is not enough to make a successful marriage. No, you can't help who you fall in love with in any way shape or form. But you can control the wedding date. Why are people in such a fire hurry to get married? Why is finishing your studies and getting started in your career so hard to wait on? We're talking at most 4 years. If the love is there, it will be there the day after graduation. Money makes this world go round and round. Go ahead and pay your rent with love. See how long you have a roof over your head. I still say you have no business getting married until you can pay your own bills without mom's help. That's all I'm saying. This has nothing to do with who's paying for the wedding. We got a big fat check towards our honeymoon, it was much appreciated and I didn't feel one bit guilty taking it. It was a gift of love and I knew my bills were paid with or without this check. There's a difference in a one time wedding gift and on-going financial support. We get big fat checks every Christmas and birthday. I smile all the way to the bank. It's an honest gift. My bills are paid whether I get that money or not.

Their wanting to get married right now is pure selfishness. Yes, it is ultimately the parent's decision to support them. But it is very selfish to expect this to begin with. It would never occur to me to live this way. We stayed with my DPs mom for 2 months between leaving NC and coming to CA (that interim where you have no place to be when making suich a major move). We paid her a reasonable rent and bought our own food and we couldn't get out of there fast enough. When you feel this way, you're ready to get married. Not one second before.

So after all of this.... here is our decision (my DP feels the same way and it's her brother). We will go to NC and attend the wedding but we will not participate as part of the wedding party. We will explain that while we support him because we have an unconditional love and that we are sure we will love his new wife-to-be just as much as we get to know her, we do not support this marriage at this time. And we will not until he is supporting his household on his own (with or without his wife's help). And I'll never understand why they have to do it on our anniversary. Even his parents are upset about this. But they won't bend on it.

Tifferoo, the real bible, the one God wrote, before man translated it several times mentions nothing about Lesbians or even homosexuality in the way we think of it now. There are many books in the bible that have been completely removed over the years to suit man's needs. All those books were still God inspired. Until we read the WHOLE bible as God intended all we can do is pray for guidance. No one tried any harder than me to be straight. I was married to a man for 12 years. When HE separated from me (yes, he's the one who left. I did not leave him for a woman as many assume), I prayed and prayed and prayed. I was so tired of living a lie and being just content with life and not truly happy. I decided to live honestly from now on. I prayed about this for 2.5 years and stayed single, no dating at all during this period. The day I made the decision, such a spiritual peace fell over me. My stomach has not once been in knots since and my relationship with God has grown soooo much deeper. I can't explain it. I can only tell the story. Why would God want us to live a lie? Anyway, I met my DP two days later at a ball game. While getting to know each other, it is so obvious God brought us together. We have exactly the same faith, same everything. Finding someone with the same beliefs/values as you is very rare. We both had the same goals. It was definitely Kismet. And I also believe God kept me single that whole time so that I would be open to the relationship at that exact time.

Thank you for all of your posts and ideas and opinions. It truly helped me firm up my opinion. We never intended not to go, but were riding the fence on how involved to get. As a former wedding coordinator in the area in which they are getting married, I did give them information on places to get the best deals. There's no sense in making them pay too much just so I can say I was not involved. That would be mean and hurtful for no valid reason. But I do not have to perform leg work to make this day happen.

Thanks again!

Dawn

[tifferoo]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Dawn. I will be married next year and I pray that death only parts us. It's been times when Satan has put ideas in my mind, like committing suicide and even giving up on men because of all the hell they took me through. But I thank God that I never gave in to something I know would only be a trick from Satan to steal my soul from God. I can't agree with all of what you said, but I certainly understand what pushed you over to the other side. I am so glad that I was strong enough to wait on God to send me the real deal after Satan sent soooo many counterfeits. Df didn't come when I wanted him to, but he was right on time!

[cali4dawn]

Thank you so much for that response. I can tell by your writing that you have God as a major part of your life and that it's real. So many people give me their "biblical" opinion and it's very obvious God is no where in their life.

Saying that, as long as you both keep God as the center of both your lives, you will stay strong and together.

This is why I feel so strongly about each having the same faith. You cannot have that strength if you are not on the same page. If you practice different beliefs, it will get in the way and God is no longer the focus, but the religious practices are. There's something to be said about sharing God wholey, not in different churches.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I see so many Baptist marrying Methodist. Jewish marrying Catholic. It's OK... then kids come along. Which faith is more "important" / "better" to raise the children in? It has been proven. The majority of kids raised this way end up not attending church at all as an adult. They were inadvertently taught that it all doesn't matter because the parents never took a stand together. They will reflect you as a team, good bad or indifferent. Don't choose indifference, even if it's by accident.

You've got to stand united as a team in matters of Faith. Faith is a value system, religious practices are a part of that value system. Let's say you believe in the foot washing ceremony. Your husband doesn't. What do you expect the kids to believe? Baptist have alter calls, Catholics do not.... that's a very important issue. Which way do you want the kids to believe? How about your spouse? If you're not on the same page, one is teaching going to the alter is important, the other is teaching it's not important. See where the children's ambivelance (sp) starts coming in?

And lastly, people who say the kids need to grow up and decide for themselves, what fooey!!! You teach your kids murder is wrong, no choice. Drugs are bad, no choice. Don't run in the street, no choice. Choices to do those things come after you leave home and are on your own. While you live in this house we go to church as a family, no choice. The people who say those things do not have God as the center of their lives, plain and simple, hate me if you want. You would not let your kids decide whether or not to visit grandma, why let them decide whether or not to visit God's house... and which one? You have FAMILY values. Families stand united. You can't do this in separate houses, not even God's.

Good luck on your upcoming marriage. Plan well for the marriage, have fun at the wedding. Remember, if everything last thing went wrong at the wedding, you're still married and you've planned well and placed God in the center. The marriage will last much longer than any wedding disaster.

[tifferoo]

I thank you for your advice. I believe everything you said about family's and faith but only for the traditional type of families. I think that it would be just as confusing for kids to grow up in a family in which the family heads were of the same sex as it would be if the family heads were of different faiths. In my opinion, there are so many religions or groups who take away from or add to the Bible I believe and trust in to make what they want to do right. Not until the past couple of years have I learned that many people believe that the true Bible isn't the Bible I know. I guess if I really wanted to make the mess in my life right, I could turn to one of these translations of the Bible and I would believe that my wrongs are right. But that's not how I think it should be. My Bible says that ALL scripture is God breathed and is useful for rebuking, correcting, teaching and training for righteousness (2Tim2:16). I don't think being gay is a quality of righteousness. I try to live my life where I strive for righteousness. When I stand before the Lord on that great terrible day and I want Him to say good and faithful servant, well done instead of depart from me you work of iniquity. I just want you to know Dawn that I am not trying to judge you, but at the same time, I don't agree with what you are doing. I just told you that I understand what (and now I should clarify that to say who instead of what) pushed you to the other side. The other side I was talking about was the side of iniquity. All Christians fall down, but the key is to get back up again. I pray that one day that you and others who seem to have a relationship with God pray and seek to find out how God really feels about their present situation. I thank God that he can rebuke and correct me when I am wrong and that I am humble enough to accept the rebuke and strive to make a change. I pray that you receive this same humilty. God bless.

Tiff

[cali4dawn]

Tifferoo,

You read much more in to what I wrote than was actually there.

I guess if I really wanted to make the mess in my life right, I could turn to one of these translations of the Bible and I would believe that my wrongs are right.

I never said I only believe in the newer bibles. I have no trust in any Bible that is out today. The newer, the less trust I have. I only believe in the original bible. In my case, the newer bibles actually condemn me more and more. So you have it backwards there. Go back to the older, closer to the originals, and I'm not condemed nearly as badly.

I never mentioned raising kids in my family. I was speaking of families in general, across the board. I was actually picturing in my head a mom and a dad as I wrote. When I was raising children I was in a marriage to a man. When I use the term "spouse," it's only because this can work either way, for the husband or the wife and I'm too lazy to type husband/wife over and over. My partner and I both firmly believe that children should be raised by a mommy and a daddy. Not just one or the other and not two of one or the other. Unless a spouse has passed away prematurely, both parents raise the children together. Unless there is addiction or abuse (and there shouldn't be if you married a God loving/fearing person, you stay married until the last child has left home, no matter if you have "grown out of love" or not. I also don't believe in artificial insemination... for any one: gay or straight. If God wants a woman to be pregnant, he can handle the job. I do whole-heartedly believe in adoption.

My Bible says that ALL scripture is God breathed and is useful for rebuking, correcting, teaching and training for righteousness (2Tim2:16).


I agree... ALL scriptures, including the ones the church has removed over the years and the scriptures before the puritans changed them. You don't know what they say until you read them for yourself. And even then, all we can read is yet another translation. Here is a great example. Look at 1 Samuel 20:41.

KJV: "...and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded."

Living Bible: "and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more." (Living Bible)

So which is right? They are very, very different. In the KJV, David and Jonathan were lovers. Not in the Living Bible which is newer.

There are many, many examples like this throughout the different versions of the bible. And not all homosexual related, but mostly it is. I do believe in the Bible. Every last dot, every crossed T. I don't believe in the puritan's bible. Which is all we have to go by.

It was never my intent to get into a debate (even a friendly one) with you. Every thing I said in my last post applies to any family, raising children or not. This is the same speech I give to any one getting married. It is your duty as a Christian to have this discussion with anyone you know getting married. Helping them to make sure they are on the same page as their intended husband/wife.

I'm not going to write on this thread any more about this subject. I realized years ago it a lost cause. You can study on your own and discover whatever facts you want to discover, just as I can. I will also stand before God one day. I feel comfortable in doing so. I do not live in fear or confusion on this matter. But I did when married to my children's father.

God bless your marriage and whatever goals you may have.

Dawn

[tifferoo]

Originally posted by cali4dawn


Here is a great example. Look at 1 Samuel 20:41.

KJV: "...and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded."

Living Bible: "and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more." (Living Bible)

So which is right? They are very, very different. In the KJV, David and Jonathan were lovers. Not in the Living Bible which is newer.



Dawn,

I know you said that you weren't going to get into a debate and this was your last post so I will make this my last post as well on this topic. You said that that I read much more in to what you wrote than was actually there. That is exactly how I feel about this illustration from the Bible you posted. Taking this out of context, it would seem that David and Johnathan were gay because they kissed. I have a parallel Bible so I read the King James version, the New International Version, the New Living Translation and the New American Standard Bible. None of my translations say that David and Johnathan shook hands but I didn't take them kissing to mean that they were gay. When I read the entire book of 1Samuel, I learned that David and Johnathan were great friends and so close that they were like brothers. At this point in the text, they realized that they would no longer see each other as friends because Saul, Johnathan's father, had been pursuing David to kill him. They knew that it would be a long time before they saw each other again if ever. So they were grieving and saying goodbye. How many of you kiss someone when they leaving to go away for a long time? After Johnathan died, David said in 2Samuel 1:26 (King James version) "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant hast thou been unto me: Thy love to me was wonderful, Passing the love of women." Even reading this it doesn't lead me to think that they were gay. I can say that I love a woman more than I love a man if she is my sister or my mother. I think that it is posible for a woman to love me more than they love a man but it is not a sexual type of love, it is a spiritual sisterly type of love. This took place in different times & a different culture than we live in today. Back in those times, a kiss was just a kiss. Neither translation of the Bible that I read insinuated that David and Johnathan made love to each other. I guess how a person interpret verses from the Bible depends on what they are going through at the time. If I were gay, I would believe that a man kissing a man in the Bible was an example of gay activity. But since I am not gay, when I read about a man kissing his friend, as just a friendly kiss. I just wanted to give others on here who care the complete story. I never take a verse out of context. When you read a verse in the Bible, sometimes you have to start from the beginning of the book to get a complete understanding of what is going on.

[cali4dawn]

The only point I was making is that in one version they kiss. In another they shake hands.

That was my point. NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if you refuse to acknowledge that this is two very different translations of the very same verse, than you are as bad as the rest. There is a HUGE difference between shaking hands and kissing, sexually or platonically (sp) speaking.

And if you read the whole passage it stated that they "knew" each other and loved each tenderly and Jonathan's father says David will be his son in law in the twain... TWICE! once thru the son, once through the daughter. When they are talking about men and women, these same words mean sex and/or marriage. You can't have it both ways.

I did read the whole passage. How dare you imply I didn't. But I didn't feel the need to quote the whole chapter since I was only pointing out the differences between kiss and hand shake. And how dare you put words ito my mouth. All I said is there are many changed passages in the bible, most having to do with homosexuality. And quite frankly, if it were all so innocent, why did the bible translators/writers feel the need to change it?

I am only taking the time to reply is because you feel the need to continually reply to more than what I stated. You continually feel the need to respond to things I never said, wrote or implied.

This has gone too far. You can make that book say anything you want it to. The Puritans have been doing it long enough. It's not a new art form. All I've ever said is that the book you are reading IS NOT the original and is not exact and until you learn how to read ancient Hebrew, Greek and Roman, you will never know what the original said and what God intended us to know.

These idiots that translated the KJV are the same people that pursecuted innocent woman for withcraft. How biblical and Godly do you really think they were? They were horrible people. Self-appointed self-righteous. They were not God filled or they woudn't have treated people the way they did. And it's not because of the times. There were people fighting them and their ways. So the general public knew better. It was just them.

Do your homework. I know you mean well, but you are only doing damage. How many gay kids (teens are not old enough to yet have a real backbone and stand up against people) have killed themselves because of self-righteous hypocrites telling them they are going straight to hell and that even God doesn't love them? What rubbish. Well, God made me- 100%... and God don't make no trash.

[Mel-icious]

And there it is,............ my problem with the bible and organized religion. Two very religious people, who read the same bible, same passage, and both have different interpretations. ;)

[tifferoo]

Originally posted by Mel-icious
And there it is,............ my problem with the bible and organized religion. Two very religious people, who read the same bible, same passage, and both have different interpretations. ;)


LoL Melicious!!!

I guess one would consider this a problem but I thank God that we all have the right to express our opinions and beliefs in this country.

Now back to you Dawn,

I have learned that I can research a topic and find just as many things to support it as I can find that are against it. The truth of the matter is what I choose to believe and what the next person chooses to believe will vary depending on the person. I am sorry that you are angry by my opinion but you have the right to be angry just as much as I have the right to express my opinion. You were the one who said that Johnathan and David were lovers so to me you implied that this kiss was sexual. I don't speak Hebrew, neither do I have the original manuscripts of the Bible. All I have is what I have always had, the Holy Bible that many people all over the world believe. I just have to trust God that the Bible I read is His God inspired Word. I have no reason to question my Bible and I have no reason to reseach anything else because what I believe is what I believe. I have to trust God and lean not into my own understanding.

I by no means do not believe that God doesn't love you. In my opinion, He loves us all just like you would love your own child even if he/she has gone astray. He is patient with us all when we mess up. But I believe, just like a parent of a child gone astray, that God's desire is for us to change our evil ways. He gives us a choice. We can submit to His will and obey Him or we can do it our own way and disobey Him. I am not perfect, neither do I think I ever will be, but I will strive until my dying day to get there. My Bible is the only example I have of how I am supposed to live my life and I can only put my trust in God that this is how he intended it to be.

Now I promise you that I am finish responding on this matter on this thread. If you want another response from me, send me a private message. I apologize to everyone in this forum for this getting off track but I couldn't read what I read and not respond.

[meliz]

Heh heh. Mel, that's what I LIKE about the Bible. Room for interpretation.:)

And cali4dawn, I guess I didn't realize that your bro was spounging off your folks for PAYING for this wedding. That's not right. But maybe your mom should be the one to say no? . Marriage is a grown up responsibility, and if they can't pay for the thing, then maybe they need to get responsible/grow up first? I am guessing this would hit home pretty quick when they realise that reception dinners are $60 a pop etc.:) Then again, if he and this girl can manage to pull something together on their own, then I would give them the support... I think...

[Elysium1972]

Originally posted by meliz
Room for interpretation.:)



Heh. Oh, the interpretations I could make. ;)

[Csara]

Personally, I think you should just "SUCK IT UP" and let your brother make his own decisions and learn his own life lessons.

[cali4dawn]

You are so uncalled for. That was the most immature response on this thread.

I obviously have to watch him make his own decisions. There is no "letting" about it. I knew that before I posted. I never implied, said or anything else that I was going to try to stop this wedding. I'm unsure of how supportive I'm going to be. Me it's all about MY reactions..... I'm taking responsibility for MY REACTIONS... NOT HIS BEHAVIOR. All I can control is life is me.

Until your comment, this was a very friendly thread. Even with the debate between myself and Tifferoo.

If you are going to be a sarcastic witch, at least let it make sense. You looked for this thread on purpose just to make that comment. How grown up. Go back to kindergarden.

[HeavenLeigh]

See ya at recess on the playground C? I agree. His life, his wedding, his choices. When you marry you do NOT marry the entire family. I see how certain family issues can affect the entire family BUT each individual/couple has the right to do as they please.

[Mel-icious]

Ah, I see, when you are told to "suck it up" its hostile but when you tell others to its just a harsh old saying. K, gotcha, different rules for you. :nod:

[Csara]

Originally posted by Mel-icious
Ah, I see, when you are told to "suck it up" its hostile but when you tell others to its just a harsh old saying. K, gotcha, different rules for you. :nod: Exactly.

Cali4dawn, what was so uncalled for? Don't ask for opinions if you don't want any responses. I was giving you my opinion. I think you are selfish and out of line for getting so overinvolved in your brother's affairs and I think you should just let him live his life. You shared your business, so I commented. SUCK IT UP!

[cali4dawn]

You are all out of line.

Your comments would make sense if I had asked if I should interfere. But since I didn't, they don't apply. What is so hard to understand about that?

I NEVER EVER EVER EVER said I wanted to stop the wedding. I asked about my involvement in the wedding. Infact:

I think you are selfish and out of line for getting so overinvolved in your brother's affairs

If anything I'm UNDER-involved.

I had already sucked it up before I even posted. I can do nothing about their upcoming wedding. I never even tried other than asking him if he is sure, which anyone would do.

Personally, I think you should just "SUCK IT UP" and let your brother make his own decisions and learn his own life lessons.

That comment was made out of pure evilness. Since I never asked about interferring in his life, it was not applicable.

Tell me to suck it up if I ever do try to control his life. Tell me to suck it up if I don't like the new wife and throw a fit about it (I've never even met her, they live 3,000 miles away). Unfortunately, neither of these have happened and chances are they won't.

Infact, I'll just suck it up that everyone that made these stupid comments to me today is psychotic and will never know it because they are so wrapped up in just dawgging me and not addressing the actual issues.

I'll suck it up that I made a huge mistake thinking that people can give an honest opinion. Opinions are not right or wrong. But apparently none of you have learned that. It's a lost cause.

Go ahead. Post more stupid, idiotic comments. I will let you have the last word because none of you are worth my energies.

[tifferoo]

"Can't we all get along?"

Rodney King

:)

[meliz]

You are all out of line.

C'mon Cali4dawn, C (who is the admin here and who gives us these venues of free speech) is not "evil" at all. She quipped suck it up, which is, judging from what you say, precisely what you have done. And really this is all you can do where you're dealing with independent adults whom you love.

And even if that does offend you, why slag everyone? I simply offered my honest opinion. Didn't mean to offend. I guess my thought is that if you don't wanna hear dissenting ideas, why post the query to begin with?

Anyway, I know this is stressful, and I do empathise. But you mention you haven't met the GF... maybe she's totally awesome? Faith m'dear. It will work out. And honestly, people are just trying to help you here.

[suzieq728]

:lol:
You know what, this is some what like what I have wrestled with most of my life....
My sister gets married, it's a mistake, I know it, we all know it, but hell she does it anyway. We go to the happy day, we are all happy she even looks happy. My mom knew from day one this would not last, so she smiled that fake smile and kept saying all day long it wont last...
3 yrs later, and 2 kids, DIVORCE! LOL.. We knew it! My sister needs help, she has 2 kids, nowhere to go no money what to do.. You know what she did, SHE CALLED HER FAMILY! And we were all there for her, why CAUSE WE ARE FAMILY!
To me thats what family is all about... I made mistakes, my family knew they were mistakes before I even did whatever, and when I failed or ran into problems, my FAMILY was there to yes SUPPORT me, HELP me, thats what FAMILY is all about!
So you raised your brothers kids for a few years, and yeah tell me about it being hard trust me I have been there with my own neices & nephews. But so what? There your family.. Better you then some stranger.
So now your, DP's bro is getting married and your not happy about that huh, well he has to live & learn like the rest of us, and his family will be there to help him pick up the peices if need be cause, why? THERE FAMILY!

Sweatie, thats what family is all about... Helping each other when help is needed, supporting each other when support is needed, being there for each other when you need someone.. it's all about FAMILY...

Dont rain on his parade, its his life, let him enjoy his mistakes while he can... cause reality will set in at some point, and thats when he's going to need the support of his FAMILY!

[cali4dawn]

suzieq728, Thanks for the positive memo and not bashing.

I do intent to whole-heartedly-fully-100% support the aftermath of the horrible decision he is making now. It broke my heart to have to take my brother's kids, it did not make me angry. I was the one that called SS and took them to court. but I couldn't watch the kids go hungry another day and miss school, and the baby's diaper was so filthy it peeled back sking when pulled away. It actually ended being a good decision to take the kids away, it straightened up the parents, but still hard. Before anyone asks or accuses, I tried to help without taking the kids. I brought groceries, diapers, etc. But how long should kids have to watch their mom and dad fall on the floor? Our family
went on vacation and came back to the most horrible mess I'd ever seen. That was enough and the final straw for me.

How do you take your brother's kids away? It was so very hard to do the right thing. I kept having visions of us being little and playing and being so close. I also had family members disown me for awhile. My grandmother did not speak to me for 2 years, not even a curt hello. To this day is is only coridial to me. But the kids had to remain my focus.

So I am planning on doing the right thing when time comes. When it falls apart (and, God, I hope I'm wrong) I will be there with open arms and not a single, "I told you so." Because that is what families do.

[cali4dawn]

meliz,

It only upsets me because they were using "suck it up" for something that wasn't an issue.

If I had said I wanted to destroy this wedding then it would have been appropriate. But people made comments that don't even make sense.

I have no problem being blasted when I deserve it. And Lord knows I am far from perfect. But telling me to suck it up was just their way of being mean. They thought they were being funny, but it didn't apply here. When you get sarcastic and use it to belittle someone, it at least has to fit the situation.

I wish people would read my whole posts and stop skimming over them. Then they would get it.

On a side note, no I haven't met the girlfiriend. I'm sure she's wonderful. But that doesn't take away from the fact that neither one is working a real job and want to get married with the intent of living with mom. If he were to go out and get a real job and an apartment and need no financial help to pay his bills (the wedding doesn't count), I would be the first one in line to congratulate him. They are just not emotionally or financially ready. It doesn't have to be a nice swanky place. But he should be standing on his own two feet, even struggling is OK, before trying to support someone else. Requiring help from mom automatically means you're not reay for the responsibilities of being married.

That's all I ever said. They're going to get married anyway, why stress myself trying to stop it and make enemies along the way? What purpose would it serve? Absolutely none. I will go to the wedding, never said I wouldn't. I gave them hints on how to have a very nice, inexpensive wedding. I've done my part. We just cannot stand up in the wedding party and be official, name signing witnesses. That woud be wrong. You have to stand for what you believe in. You just have to. I ultimately have to live with myself and my actions. This I do have control over. And I've already sucked it up that we may be hurting feelings and they have to suck it up that this is our position. If they let our actions stop them from getting married (influence theit decision) , it's just another clue that they were not ready to be married.

[babyblue]

I have no problem being blasted when I deserve it. And Lord knows I am far from perfect. But telling me to suck it up was just their way of being mean. They thought they were being funny, but it didn't apply here. When you get sarcastic and use it to belittle someone, it at least has to fit the situation.

Thats the impression I got. It sounded like it was meant to be funny, but it came across as just plain ol mean and sarcastic... which isn't something I would expect from an admin... which is starting to make me wonder about this site.

[Csara]

Sorry, I don't wear a "pink fuzzy sweater" and from many of your posts around this board, neither do you. So what's the problem? It's called freedom of speech. Do NOT post personal situations if you don't want opinions. They won't always be what you want to hear. Now babyblue, if you have any further issues you'd like to discuss regarding me and/or the way this board is run, please send me a PM.

[Life201]

Just to throw my two cents in here, I don’t know if everyone realizes that some of this carried over from another forum and that’s where the “suck it up” came from. It was a direct quote from Cali4Dawn.

[Mel-icious]

Originally posted by babyblue
Thats the impression I got. It sounded like it was meant to be funny, but it came across as just plain ol mean and sarcastic... which isn't something I would expect from an admin... which is starting to make me wonder about this site.

BB, She is also an active member of the board, and has the right to post her feelings as much as you or any other member on this board. She does an excellent job of running this site and is fair in doing so. So that was totally uncalled for.

[CC21]

Originally posted by Mel-icious
BB, She is also an active member of the board, and has the right to post her feelings as much as you or any other member on this board. She does an excellent job of running this site and is fair in doing so. So that was totally uncalled for.


Not to mention that fact that C and her wonderful hubby pay for this site out of their own pockets. She's not some hired admin who is here to regulate everything we say.

[Tearianna]

I have to respond here because C is a great admin, and she has every right to post whatever she wants. I'm actually pretty impressed that she's managed to keep her humor with Cali.

[tifferoo]

Originally posted by Joni
Not to mention that fact that C and her wonderful hubby pay for this site out of their own pockets. She's not some hired admin who is here to regulate everything we say.

Wow, I didn't know that! I guess I should say thanks to you Csara and your hubby for the site, I really enjoy it.

But at the same time, I think that we all have the right to say what we want to say in this country as long as it doesn't cause anyone any harm. What harm was caused by someone saying "suck it up"? If Csara's advice was taken seriously and someone "sucked something up" and choked on it, then there would be a problem, but it was still a choice they made when they actually "sucked it up". I don't think this comment has caused any physical damage. Now emotionally, I can't say. Maybe Cali's feelings are hurt because of the comment. Even if she said the same thing in another forum (and it has always been said, you reap what you sow)She has the right to express the fact that her feelings are hurt even if she is expressing it to the administrator of the site. I don't think we need to "suck up" to Csara just because it's her site either. We can all stick up for our friends on this site, but I think we all need to realize that we are on the internet and it really isn't that serious. Most of us haven't even seen each other before so why should we argue. My opinion, that I have the right to say, is that I think this entire thing has gone too far and it should be stopped. Read Rodney King's quote again and please, let's all just get along please.

[Mel-icious]

Originally posted by tifferoo
I don't think we need to "suck up" to Csara just because it's her site either. We can all stick up for our friends on this site, but I think we all need to realize that we are on the internet and it really isn't that serious. Most of us haven't even seen each other before so why should we argue.

Actually no one is "sucking up" to Csara. She happens to be a pretty close friend of mine, we've been friends for a little over 3 years now. I talk to her more than I do my RL friends. Wether I've "seen" her or not, she is a good friend to myself and a lot of others here. This board means alot to some of us, its been through alot and I get pretty po'd that someone who has been a member for a week comes in and makes a comment like that. So excuse me for not putting on my fuzzy pink sweater, but if your going to disrespect the board and Csara, you have no business being here. JMHO. :smoking:

[Deana]

Originally posted by Joni
Not to mention that fact that C and her wonderful hubby pay for this site out of their own pockets. She's not some hired admin who is here to regulate everything we say.

YES!! I second this. C has done a fantastic job creating and sustaining this community.

And so many people have already said it, but everyone is entitled to say what they want to say here. ;)

[Life201]

I also didn’t think anyone was “sucking up” to Csara. She is one of the most familiar “faces” on this board, as well as being the admin and rarely ever has anything but wonderful and encouraging words for everyone. It’s totally wrong for anyone to speak out against her. She does hold her tongue much more than most of us could ever dream of doing and for that, I have a tremendous amount of respect for her, as well as all my friends on HT.

[jana]

Originally posted by Mel-icious
Wether I've "seen" her or not, she is a good friend to myself and a lot of others here. This board means alot to some of us,

Ditto! I :heart: C. I joined this board on a whim a little more than 2 years ago, never thinking I would stick around and find such a great group of friends. C and Jester have worked hard on their community here, and I love them for it. Call me a suckup if you will :huh:, but I speak the truth.

Originally posted by tifferoo
If Csara's advice was taken seriously and someone "sucked something up" and choked on it, then there would be a problem, but it was still a choice they made when they actually "sucked it up".

:biglaugh: I'm sorry, but that just cracked me up! :biglaugh:

[tifferoo]

Ok guys, I was playing on the words "suck" and "up"...lol. Calm down, I am not trying to bash any of you or Csara. I know some of you are friends but still in all, you seem to be jumping on Cali because she had words with Csara. The point I was trying to make is that Cali should be allowed to voice her opinion just as much as Csara should be able to voice her opinion aside from who is the administrator. I think that there is nothing wrong with friendly debates, but when you start name calling, that is uncalled for and someone should be adult enough to know when to leave well enough alone.

[babyblue]

Now babyblue, if you have any further issues you'd like to discuss regarding me and/or the way this board is run, please send me a PM
There doesn't need to be any discussion... I just gave MY opinion on the matter, WHICH YOU HAVE CLEARLY STATED FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS ALLOWED, and that was all. Sorry, if that comment was a carry over from another thread that I didn't see, either way it just sounded mean to me... like I said I don't think admins (whether you pay to run the board or not) or mods should be anything but supportive... at least that is how our board at ABC was run... besides the privacy issues, thats why we (and I mean my Oct moms site) didn't want to set up a new board here. You girls are all pretty cool, sorry C if you took what I said the wrong way, but I was just stating my opinion on what was said and I thought we were allowed to express that. :)


Tifferro I think they were jumping on me more than Cali for speaking out and saying what C said was mean... but it was my opinion and should be allowed as much as anyone else. I wasn't bashing, just agreed with Cali that it was mean and meant to be funny, although not.

I'm not gonna comment any further on the matter. Sorry for steppin on toes or whatever. ;)

[suzieq728]

Wait a minute, Im totaly confused, ok now who is sucking C??? LMAO


I guess after being here all these years and getting to know everyone the way I have this whole conversation sounds to ridulous to me.

First of all, nobody "sucks up" to C just cause she admin, she's just a way cool person, (no, C you :rock: , in my book)...


Hmm, lets see, how can I explain this, I know this is just the internet and all, but when I need someone to talk to, or I am in need of advice, I come here. I have been with these girls for almost 4 yrs now, and I feel like each and every one of them are my very best friends.... Yeah that happened over the internet.. Hey, I didnt think it was possiable either.....
But it is...

;)

[tifferoo]

Originally posted by suzieq728
Hmm, lets see, how can I explain this, I know this is just the internet and all, but when I need someone to talk to, or I am in need of advice, I come here. I have been with these girls for almost 4 yrs now, and I feel like each and every one of them are my very best friends.... Yeah that happened over the internet.. Hey, I didnt think it was possiable either.....
But it is...

;)

I guess I can relate to some of this like, when I need advice I can come here. You guys have all been great at giving advice. However, I can't relate to having a best friend who I have never seen. To me, best friends know almost every detail about each other and I have never been able to find a friendship like that which only involved conversing on the internet. Now there are people I have met on the internet and we met in person and we are very best friends, but prior to me meeting them in person, they were just another email buddy/internet buddy.

Let me ask you guys a few questions. Since some of you have been together on the net for almost 4 years, do you not care to have new members in your group who have different opinions than you do? This is only my opinion ok & I don't want to make you guys angry by what I am about to say. The way some of you who have been on here forever are acting reminds me of a high school clique who sometimes picks on people who are not a part of the clique and have no intention of letting new people into that clique who are not like them. Now I know you are going to really chew me up for that statement, but I want an honest answer. Do you or don't you want variety of members and difference of opinions on this site or do you want a bunch of people who agree with what the boss says? I don't think that this site would be as fun if we all had the same opinions. There would be no friendly debates & there would be no getting to know each other. How can you even know if you like new members if you don't listen to what they have to say? If one of the original members doesn't like someone, does that mean that we all have to hate them?

[jana]

Originally posted by tifferoo
Since some of you have been together on the net for almost 4 years, do you not care to have new members in your group who have different opinions than you do?... Do you or don't you want variety of members and difference of opinions on this site or do you want a bunch of people who agree with what the boss says? I don't think that this site would be as fun if we all had the same opinions. There would be no friendly debates & there would be no getting to know each other. How can you even know if you like new members if you don't listen to what they have to say?

Wow. I think it's unfortunate that you (and possibly others) think we come off as a snobby clique. I haven't been around here for quite as long as some of the others, but I have been here for a good amount of time.

To answer one of your questions: yes, I want a variety of members and difference of opinions here, and I do think we have that in many ways. I am constantly learning new things from members here, which leads me to evaluate, challenge, and modify my own views--and I think that's great.

Having said that, I do feel a bit closer, in a way, to members who share my viewpoint/beliefs on certain things. It's only natural to gravitate towards people with whom you have things in common.

Here's how I see it. Even in the 2 years that I have been here, we have had many new members join (and stay) who have opinions all over the place on all different topics. Some of them agree with the majority on some things, and others don't. Some of my own views are pretty unconventional and do not mesh with the majority. I don't in any way think we have a bunch of mindless clones here.

What these new members who stuck around and made themselves at home have in common is not necessarily their beliefs, but the fact that they respect others, whether they be existing members or other new members. There is a certain degree of etiquette and courtesy that should be shown in any relationship/conversation, and the new members who ruffle feathers often lack such courtesy.

How do I know if I like new members without listening to what they have to say? Well, first impressions often say a lot. I find it very difficult to have the patience to listen to somebody (in real life or here at HT) if she is judgemental, uses inflammatory language, sweeping generalizations or has the attitude that her opinion is the only right one. I may come to like that person eventually, but if she can't be respectful of me, others and all of our opinions, I am less likely to spend my time being offended and treated rudely in order to get to know her.

I have heard lots of resident HTers say things like the following many, many times to many, many people:

I respect your views, whether I agree with them or not. What I do not appreciate is the manner in which they were expressed.

I find it incredibly hard to understand why people can't grasp that. It's not the views that bother me, it's the way they are presented.

[Mel-icious]

Originally posted by tifferoo
I know some of you are friends but still in all, you seem to be jumping on Cali because she had words with Csara. The point I was trying to make is that Cali should be allowed to voice her opinion just as much as Csara should be able to voice her opinion aside from who is the administrator. I think that there is nothing wrong with friendly debates, but when you start name calling, that is uncalled for and someone should be adult enough to know when to leave well enough alone.

Sorry Tiff, but Cali was the one name calling, in case you missed it in another thread, she called C an idiot and a psycho. That isn't the ONLY reason we jumped on her, although that's enough for me. In other threads she bashed people who didn't live their lives the way she did, she was extremely opinionated and stepped on alot of toes. She was rude to more than a few members in other threads. That is the reason for so many coming down on her, not because she called C names, because she pissed off alot of individuals.

Your right BB, this isn't ABC, this is Hometalkers, Csara is an admin, and a poster, and has just as much right to post her feelings as anyone, she has always been fair to everyone. As well as all of us moderators. We're here to look out for spam, trolling, ect, not to babysit everyone or bite our tongue because we're moderators, we're here to participate, we have opinions and are free to state them.

As for the question do we want new members, of course. You see us as a clique, sorry if some of us are pretty close. I happen to think we're friendly with everyone, we have had alot of new members that feel differently. Even though we are friends and we are close, we also differ in opinion from time to time, hell Suzie Q, is one of the sweetest members here, she and I don't see eye to eye on religion, but I love her to death, because she can discuss things without flying off the handle and she can be respectful, just like all of the other members who stick around. I happen to think there are alot of newer members here who rock, and who I hope to stick around. But people like Cali, we don't need around here. JMHO. ;)

[tifferoo]

I thank you for clearing up your relationship on here for me. It's hard for me to relate to the relationships you have on here because I feel like I am an outsider to some of you. I apologize to some of you if I have ever offended you in the "manner that I expressed my opinions" but that is just my personality. It was never my intent when I joined this site to win a popularity contest anyway. I joined this forum because I was getting married and I wanted to chat and get incite from brides to help prepare for my wedding. I must admit, Wedding Talkers Refugees are mostly all the time respectful to one another. It's when we get to some of these other forums like religion and politics that the problems start to exist and that happens in real life as well.

I have learned that some people can be jerks, some people are nice, some people are mean, some people don't know how to talk to others and some people will tell you what you want to hear to make sure you continue to like them, but I think it takes knowing them a while before you can truly come to these conclusions. I have never been a person to have a 1000 friends at a time, but any body who personally knows me, loves me and that's all that matters to me. I have friends who don't like what I say or how I say it, but they respect my opinion because that is a part of my personality and if they don't, I don't need them as a friend.


Originally posted by Mel-icious
Sorry Tiff, but Cali was the one name calling, in case you missed it in another thread, she called C an idiot and a psycho. That isn't the ONLY reason we jumped on her, although that's enough for me. In other threads she bashed people who didn't live their lives the way she did, she was extremely opinionated and stepped on alot of toes. She was rude to more than a few members in other threads. That is the reason for so many coming down on her, not because she called C names, because she pissed off alot of individuals.


For the record, I don't agree with everything that Cali has said or done and I realize that Cali was the one who started the name calling but at the same time, adults should know how to shut down an argument when it gets too heated. I have done it all the time. You can argue with some people all day and never get anywhere so why should you make yourself look silly arguing for a lost cause. Some people have said mean things to me on here but when they do, I don't continue to argue with them all day for the whole world to see, why waste my time. I just wish that we could all act like adults on this site.

[suzieq728]

:blush: :blush: Aww I feel so special M.. :D
Really though, you hit the nail right on the head, we totaly dont agree on relgion, but, we can still be friends, and I will always respect your, as well as others opinions...

I just want to say one thing though on the good/best friends issue.. I have had many friends come & go threw out my life. Some I am still in touch with some I have not heard from in years and probably will never hear from them again.
But here, well you girls know, I was gone for almost how long, I dont even remember. While I was gone I got emails from some of the girls here making sure I was alright. I received invites to come back to the board and instant messeaged some of you too.
To me a good/best friend is someone who care about you, is intune to your feelings, someone who can say ok whats bothering you, and you say nothing, and they yeah right come on I know something is bothering you. And when you spit it all out, there there for you. Not judging you, not condeming you just there for you...
And that is what I have gotten from this board. People who care. People that have taken an interest in my life, although there busy lives are still revolving.
I dont care what anybody says, I have found a few BEST FRIENDS right here at HomeTalkers.....
On the issue of new members, oh come on, of course we want new members.. and clique, I dont think so. I think what happens is sometimes when a new member comes on the board and attacks one of us, we stick together, like BEST FRIENDS do... And when one of us is wrong, another will let us know..

Gosh I could write a book about the how this board and the people on it have changed my life.... ;)

[suzieq728]

One more thing I forgot to mention,
If three years ago someone would have told me that I would log onto a message board everyday to see how so & so is doing today. Or go to a message board when I was feeling down or something happened in my life I would never have believed them!


I will admit that I never thought it possiable to make "True" friends online... But it's possiable.

If one of these girls on this board said to me, I really need help, wish you were here, and I thought the situation was serious enough, I would get on a plane and be by there side in a heart beat... ;) ;)

All this from the internet!!!

C, you & J have done a wonderful thing here at HT.... I would like to thank you both for your time & effort, and also for giving us a place to hang out at....;) ;)

[Elysium1972]

Originally posted by suzieq728
ok now who is sucking C?

Is that a request? Is it my turn? :p

Originally posted by suzieq728
I have been with these GIRLS for almost 4 yrs now, and I feel like each and every one of them are my very best friends....

*feels totally dissed* :(


;)

[HeavenLeigh]

Originally posted by Elysium1972
Is that a request? Is it my turn? :p

Here :wave: I'm next!!! :eyebrow:

[HeavenLeigh]

I chat w/ these gals much more than I do my RL friends. I have "known" them for 2 1/2 years and they have picked my :moon: up and dusted it off many times. They have always been here for me and I love each of them for that. I have several of the gals phone #'s and mailing addys. We send cards and pictures to one another. They are family. If it takes to the day I fall over dead I plan on meeting a large handful of them in person.

[Mel-icious]

Originally posted by tifferoo
I thank you for clearing up your relationship on here for me. It's hard for me to relate to the relationships you have on here because I feel like I am an outsider to some of you. I apologize to some of you if I have ever offended you in the "manner that I expressed my opinions" but that is just my personality. It was never my intent when I joined this site to win a popularity contest anyway.

Believe you me, I am not around here to win a popularity contest, if anyone, I am the bitch who doesn't take crap. I always express my opinions, no holds barred. Ready for any backlash, if I dish it out, I am ready to take what comes back. ;)

Originally posted by tifferoo
You can argue with some people all day and never get anywhere so why should you make yourself look silly arguing for a lost cause. .......... I just wish that we could all act like adults on this site.

Tiff, we can disagree, and we can debate in a mature manner, some topics are not easily tossed aside, and I think for the most part we do debate in a mature manner. There are a lot of topics all over the forum where parties have disagreed, and not all have come to fights. Some get heated, but for the most part, we all go on and are friendly, even after the debate, it's been going on here since the board started. ;)

[suzieq728]

:D
Gee Tommy, can you ever forgive me?? You know I include you too.. You of all people your like my mentor.. Where do I go for a very very honest opion? I go to T....:D

Sorry T didnt mean to leave you out ;)

You know you should try writting that book... WE could be rich by now... LOL....

[Tearianna]

Shhh ... everyone ... look ...

I think Cali's gone!!

Can we just say C&J rock ... and this thread is tired now :D

[Deana]

It's been said plenty in this thread, but of course I want to add my 2 cents worth...
I think the cool thing about this board is that there is some diversity, there is room for healthy debate and there's an opportunity to learn about different views. The thing that's really great about this board is that respect, maturity and articulation are unspoken rules. When people come across as flagrant and rude, then they are going to reap what they sow.
And I personally have made some extremely close friends that I've never seen in person. I don't ever want people to feel excluded, but of course I'm going to be drawn to the people that I have things in common with and that I've known for a while. It's just like in RL.

And I'm with Jenn:
Shhh ... everyone ... look ...

I think Cali's gone!!

Can we just say C&J rock ... and this thread is tired now

[Life201]

I’ve only been here since February, and have become very close and very attached to the people here. I’ve never felt excluded or that there are any “cliques”. I’ve always felt very welcomed. I have seen when some people come in and come across very strong and opinionated and appear to be attacking others rather than conversing… And that’s when things get heated.

I also think C & J have a really great thing going here and am very happy to be able to be a part of this little global community. Thanks to everyone who has made me feel so welcome and part of the family.

[Csara]

Hey guys...... our phone line got cut off yesterday afternoon and JUST got turned on. :eek:

Anyway, just wanted to say no hard feelings to anyone (babyblue or anyone else). And thanks to everyone for your appreciation of this board. :D Tifferoo, I really hope you or anyone else doesn't feel "out of the loop" or anything like that around here. It's not intended to be that way.

[tifferoo]

Originally posted by Csara
Tifferoo, I really hope you or anyone else doesn't feel "out of the loop" or anything like that around here. It's not intended to be that way.

My turn to "suck up" LOL!!! Csara is soooooo sweet!!!!

But on the real, thanks Csara, It's really nice to know that.

[Csara]

LOL! I just wanted to add that I've noticed most people tend to hang around in certain forums where the subject matter interests them most so that probably has something to do with feeling like you know some people better than others, yk? For example, I don't make my way to this section (wedding) or the Fashion and Beauty, the Thinking of Conceiving or the Parenting section (to name a few....;)) as much as some of the other forums, so if there are people who spend the majority of their time in those forums that I don't, naturally I wouldn't have as much contact with them.